So when people who don't own property pay rent, they are paying part of that to cover the taxes that they property owner has to pay. I don't own...our rent went up when Libertyville's property taxes went up. So your point there isn't really valid.

Lottery sales do fund the schools. The problem is that the state decided to steal the pot of money that used to go to the schools. In the past, let is say the state (A) provided $1,000,000,000 in funding. When the lottery (B) come around it also generated $1,000,000,000. You would think that the school would have $2,000,000,000 for funding. What did the state do; they took 'A' and left 'B'. Therefore the schools are only funded $1,000,000,000. By the state playing this game, the lottery is paying for public education.

Procrustes, i'm glad we can agree on something! You make a good point here.

This also reminds me of the highway toll thing...you know, they are only going to collect tolls on this road until it's built and then they will remove the tollbooths.

Yeah, sure.

"h m" is correct. It's as if the school lottery fund is an 8 ounce cup to be filled with 16 ounces of water. Whatever spills over gets sucked up for other purposes. The fund limits should be increased.
"Brian" is also correct. Renters pay the property owner who then pays the taxes. This also is the rebuttal to the complaint that "46% pay no taxes".

Property taxes come from different types of property. Residential rental or owner occupied is only one. Some Districts have large commercial and industrial property valuations; some have none. Some Districts have low income housing and not high value housing.
On an important level, the quality of education in lower income areas has fallen because of two reasons. We have herded young men and women through the school systems. School leavers and high school graduates have found themselves underqualified for work; For them,education is neither an educational nor a social good.. How can they push their children towards interclass mobility when they do not believe in it. In addition, for crass political gain, our municipal, State and Federal officials have pushed welfare on an individual basis to the detriment of family formation.

First, those who can afford it should pay for their own kids.
The rest should be funded by a local income tax.

HM is right when the lottrery was introduced it was supposed to iadd the income for the schoolls not replace other funding. The State played the shell game with the people of Illinois

School choice ??? Poor kids from North Chicago bus to Libertyville Schools ??

Is that fair to Libertyville home owners who pay 5 times more in property taxes than home owners in North Chicago ? Not fair..
Solution for equal and fair education ????? Poor towns should raise their taxes.

"Jose" did you read the article?
A recent lawsuit argued the system was unfair because people in areas with large, wealthy, property tax bases paid a lower tax rate than people who lived in less wealthy areas, the Daily Herald reported.

@Doug - Except that the person in the wealthy base is still paying a larger dollar amount. People for taking others money for schooling like to use Rondout as an example as being a "lush" school district. Rondout's real issue is that they are a very small district, but still have all the administrators. The large admin salaries are spread over fewer students, giving this great "example" for people to complain about. How much are the leeches of this state going to take from the productive workers - the parasites are going to kill the host.

With you there - getting out of Cook and headed to Lake and taking 30 employees with me. Enough is enough in Cook with the excessive commercial property taxes. Every 3 years we get massivly over assessed, hire attorneys and get back down to a lower amount. Still 2x Lake commercial rates. Waste of my time as a business owner!

Nice try Hank, but you're off the wall! We are already overpaying for education, at least in our area. If I recall correctly, the school district with the lowest per pupil cost (somewhere downstate) actually came close to being the highest rated school in Illinois.

If you have a gripe with pensions, send a thank-you note to Garrett and the other legislators for taking the pension funds the teachers contributed and spending them on frivolous pet programs of their special interest constituents.

Many teachers are overpaid, but you can't blame them as much as you can blame the incompetent people we elect to the school boards. They are the ones who don't hold the line on teachers' salaries.

I agree with Mindy on all points...

Mindy,
Where is the line on teachers salaries? How much do you think they sould be paid ?

The really good teachers should be paid a lot more, the terrible ones should be fired, the mediocre ones less with more coaching. I would put the really good ones at around 15%, the bad15% and mediocre at 70%

Teachers salaries (administrators too) should be tied to performance. We ought to have achievable, fair metrics to measure their performance by, and the metrics should naturally vary by grade level, class, etc. (i.e., it wouldn't be fair to rate a teacher's performance the same for a remedial class as for a gifted class, nor for a PE class compared to a Science class).

If you meet or exceed your targets, you qualify for a raise. If you don't, then no raise. All raises should come out of a pool of money set aside for that purpose, and when the pool is exhausted, even if you've met/exceeded your targets you don't get a raise. This would reset each year, so if you met/exceeded the prior year and got no raise, that doesn't mean an automatic raise the following year whether your meet/exceed your targets or not.--- Just like the situation in the private sector.

Giving a raise to everyone, every year - does nothing to enhance performance or educational excellence. All it does is drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator because those who don't want to try know they're going to get a raise no matter what.

Giving a raise to someone simply for getting an advanced degree or taking courses toward such a degree doesn't do anything for educational excellence either. PROVE to us that you deserve the raise, and we'll consider you for it. Have an advance degree and get additional weighting. But you ought note to be considered for extra until you've completed the degree.

Anyone can go to the districts website and get the information.
http://www.nssd112.org/files/_iaBWH_/dd7dd2eb4dad07253745a49013852ec4/NSEA_Employment_Contract_2012-2014.pdf

Sarah, my point to. If you don't have kids going to any school ? why should you continue to pay school property taxes ???? not fair.

Because the quality of the schools is a huge part of property values.

More than likely you had kids in your household at one time or another and availed yourself of the district schools. If you didn't, you were aware of the property taxes when you bought your property. My heart doesn't bleed for you.

I have no children. I have no problem with paying my property taxes. Granted, I think, if they can afford it, families with children should pay a slightly higher rate or but that's not going to happen. I'm equally sure they already pay certain fees of which I am not aware.
Quality schools make for a better quality of life overall in a community.

Sarah,

Three points. First do you vote at every local election -- February, Apri and November. The turnout at the first two is usally 30% of the registered voters or less. February primaries for local election is where all the Bond Issues, tax rate increases are carried on the ballot. Every member of the local PTA knows this.

Second, do you attend school board meetings? and Communicate to your neighbors these dreary, longwinded affairs to the end?

Third, The schools publish the alleged good news about the standardized exam results. Were you aware that the State dumbed down the tests and normed up the scores? Were you aware of the abysmal performance of our schools versus those of foreign nations -- and that includes our Advanced Placement courses? And if you were a parent, were you arawe that already high cost of college is increased on campus by their testing and assigning a large number remedial classes to make them handle college level work? That makes it necessary for the parent to pay not for four years of college but 4.5 or 5 years -- all because the local high school did not do the job -- high standardized tests or not.

But to answer your question. Supposedly outstanding schools increaseproperty values when you sell.

I vote for Sara,look at SUNCITY we pay alot of taxes for schools ,and there are many in the Didtrict

I don't think many people would argue that the schools have zero impact on our property values.If we accept that, then the schools do have an impact on our property values and in recognition of that fact, we all need to contribute *something* to our schools.

But I agree, the tax rates are too high already. We need to do a better job of managing costs and looking for synergies in operations so we can reduce the burden on the taxpayer. To some extent, the various taxing bodies have been doing this for several years-the City, School Districts, and Park District all belong to various consortiums which help to keep costs low through bulk buying or service sharing. That's a good thing for everyone.

But should everyone pay the same rate regardless of whether or not they have kids in the District? I'd say no. People with no kids certainly derive a benefit toward their property values, and society benefits from better educated children in increased future productivity and reduced future costs through criminal activity, etc. so they ought to pay something toward the schools. Let's say 20% of the full amount.

People with no kids in the High School District, but in the Elementary District should certainly pay to the Elementary District, but how much to the High School District is fair? They're going to have kids there eventually right? What percentage?

People with more than two kids?How much?

How do you track and manage this? Do you believe our State could handle it?

Nice way to look at it...me likey!

It certainly isn't with the government bandits! As someone mentioned above, the lottery proceeds were to SUPPLEMENT the education pot. Unfortunately, the crooks in Springfield took an equal amount of money away from the education general fund that was added to the fund by the lottery proceeds.

Wake up guys, we have at least as many crooks in Springfield that we have in Washington DC!

Gas taxes are another one. The Springfield crooks have taken the money we paid in via our gas tax dollars, and spent it on their special interest programs. Now they cry about the lack of funds for road repair and want to raise your taxes even further.

I think is time to end that. As soon as your kids are done with public school ? you shouldn't have to continue paying for school taxes, fair is fair..Time to end that.

Ok, Jose, then I think you shouldn't pay for the Fire Dept. unless you have a fire and need them. Then you pay a 10k usage fee. Or how about the police, maybe you have a criminal in your house and then you enter in a credit card number before 911 answers? Maybe you don't enjoy parks so you should not have to pay for those. Heck, I don't need food stamps so why should my taxes go to pay for them. You will note from my other posts I am a pretty conservative guy, but this is just not a good policy to pursue as a society. The discussion of what should be paid for by the government should certainly be on the table, but not the idea that all fees should be based on who is using the service. We need government and we need it to provide a certain core set of services of which education is an important one. These services should be paid for by all.

"Yes. I am from Canada, we pay for education through property taxes. The gov't funds the rest."

Not sure how it works up in Canada, but down here in America, we also fund the 'gov't'. Most of us figure that out by the time we're 40.

Jose, do you even know how property taxes work?
The taxes did NOT stay the same. The rate may have stayed the same, but if the worth of the property went down then the taxes also went down. You don't pay the same taxes on a $200K home as you do on a $100K home.

Doug: "... if the worth of the property went down then the taxes also went down. ..." This is not always correct. If YOUR property dropped in value, but everyone else's stayed the same or went up, your taxes should be lowered. But that is not usually what people are talking about. In 2008, just about everyone's property values dropped. But the vast sums demanded by education bureaucracies stayed the same. Thus, the *allocation" of taxes to homeowners stayed the same, and you paid the same in property taxes.

my property value has gone WAY DOWN and my property taxes keep going up and up and up. See the beaurocracy that is our school districts and the IEA are feeling the crunch of everything going up in this state so they just keep giving teachers raises on the backs of everyone. They just keep asking for TAX LEVIES. See there is a law in cook county called the "tax levy extension law". see with that law the schools don't have to live withing there means. Everytime they need money, i.e for raises, which they continually get every time their contracts come up for negotiations, they ask the CROOK COUNTY board for the extension which is granted just like when CRROK COUNTY wants MORE they do the same thing.

A fraction of their money????????

Wake-up and read your tax bill!

A fraction doesn't mean a small amount. 99/100ths is still a fraction. We live in a district with good schools. I didn't say it wasn't a system without flaws, but there are much worse things our money could go to.

If you look at you property tax bill, the schools are taking between 50 & 70 % of the total amount. If you add up what is being paid in real estate taxes, federal income tax, social security, unemployment, state tax, sales tax the middle class is paying about 50% - 60% of our entire salary on taxes. Maybe it is about time the Federal & state gvernments get smaller.

Over the last 5 or 6 years, the provate sector has had to lay off people to make ends meet. However, the government just keeps adding more and more to there employment roles. It is about time they feel the same way as the private sector does. The government needs to do a RIF (Reduction in force).

"We live in a district with good schools." Oh, really? Are the schools in your area the right choice for EVERY child in your community, regardless of their needs, interests, learning styles, or the fit with the pedagogy in place? For EVERY child? Because this is what the current system demands we believe, and it obviously isn't true.

Right on, Mike!

Well you have the caucus system to thank for many people I know not getting on the school board. Look what just happened in glenview d34. I tried to get on the school board, but the school board didn't want me!

"Deadcatbounce" is 100% correct. The caucus system is a remarkable tool to keep vested interests in power and to suppress any dissent. Whenever anyone says they favor "local funding for local control", what they're saying is someone ELSE controls decisions for YOUR kids.

my sister works in the city and makes 80,000 a year. They work 6 months out of the year. Give me a break with this compensation CRAP. These teachers are all over paid

James
I think you need some data to support that claim if you want it considered as anything other than CRAP.

The Illinois State Board of Education publishes salary information on their website:

http://www.isbe.state.il.us/research/htmls/salary_report.htm

@Deadcatbounce: You can start another caucus based upon different interest. Except for Township caucuses, there's no legal procedure for forming one. Start one in D34 and put your candidates up against the other Caucus' candidates.

Nice, when all else fails blame the Mexicans.

When all else fails, gotta blame the biggest immigrant group available. Blame the Irish, Polish, Russians, and now Mexicans/Latinos.

I have absolutely no sympathy for any group of people who exterminate each other on the magnitude the inner city, specifically the south side, does. To hell with them, use the money where it is best utilized and appreciated.

so true. When this state keeps re-electing the same CROOKS over and over and over you are never going to fix the mess that these people have created. How about no one in SPRINGFIELD gets paid until the mess is fixed. When the fox is in charge of the hen hous, the hen's lose.

Huh? What other state does this where it works fine?????

"... all schools receive the same amount per student...": 1) In states where this is mostly true, usually there is some scaling for local costs. 2) Why should this money go directly to the local government entity? Why not just send a voucher (or provide a tax credit) for individual children? Let the money follow the child, so that parents can decide on the right school environment for each of their own children.

Why should i keep funding a social security system that pays your medicare and ss benefits when i'll never see them because the system has been robbed from for decades and will be broke by the time i get to retire? i've worked 30 years.i've done my duty......enough is enough.

Actually Ron, the property taxes you paid during your childrens' school years only paid a small part of their education. A large amount of the money was paid by the empty nesters. Now it's your turn!

because you didn't do it alone.

Because it is not about you Ron, but about what makes a great society. Similarly, I am only in my thirties but I don't mind paying for medicare because I believe seniors need to be taken care of. I also have never had a fire in my house but I don't mind paying for fire fighters.

Well chris you should mind paying for a bloated, inefficient fire department and that's what we have. We have fireman now with nothing to do that, but follow ambulances around all day. Over the past 35 years, the number of fires in the United States has fallen by more than 40% while the number of career firefighters has increased by more than 40% (data).

Deadcat,
Please don't miss the point. The firefighting budget may be bloated and less necessary than in the past, but the point is that we all pay for things that we as individuals do not use. It's about what makes a society healthy. Sometimes you have to help your neighbor. Like if your neighbor has a huge dandelion problem in his yard and you don't care because it's not your yard, well pretty soon that problem will become yours too. We don't live in an enclosed box, we live in a society and we all impact each other. My point is that we can debate what is best for society but to simply state that I don't want to pay for anything that helps others and not me is selfish and unrealistic.

Not so James! Can you point out any valid statistics that support your position?

Here you go, Mindy.
http://www.ecu.edu/cs-educ/econ/upload/jee05.pdf

Doug, thanks for the link to that report. Although I haven't finished reading all 18 pages, from what I've seen so far is that the grad student penning this report confuses correlation with causation. Unfortunately, this is done way too often when students write such reports. More later, I'm off to a meeting after one more post!

I did read the whole paper, Mindy, and while I don't think the author confuses correlation with causation, she was not too proficient in analyzing her data. I think, and I think the author may have agreed if I read correctly, that her sample was too limited to have any national ramifications. If this was meant to be a general thesis describing local conditions that could then lead to investigation on a wider scale, then the research was adequate. So I think, Doug, that while this is not sufficient to generalize the results to all parts of the U.S., it was a start. It is valid, but only valid in its limited range. It's also important to note the population of Eastern North Carolina. I don't know if any demographic characteristics particular to this region were factored out. Maybe they were, but I don't remember from what I read. Maybe there's additional research out there that expands this study. Don't know that I care to search for it, but maybe somebody else would.

Property values are also enhanced when parents have a choice, as new buyers will be looking for homes in areas where they have a variety of educational options to choose from, including conventional government-run and union controlled schools, as well as public charter schools, magnet schools, and other options. In Illinois, there are almost no such options (except, oddly, for in the city of Chicago), so there is this mad real estate scramble to choose a neighborhood for its assigned school. That's pretty much nuts. Would you tolerate a system in which your local neighborhood food council decided on the one and only supermarket you could use?

So they are studying one. What is your point? Can you point out one state where it has been successfully implemented?

Illinois ranks #3 in the portion of ed spending paid by local taxes
Illinois ranks #49 in the portion of ed spending paid by state taxes

Interesting that you are the one talking about "really nasty arguments all for entertainment's sake". Too funny...

I think these polls do exactly what we want. It opens up the panel for a discussion here. Yes, a lot of it becomes drivel, but there are good points and counter points raised. Speaking for myself, these almost always provide me with something new I didn't know before stemming either from a direct comment or my own research for a rebuttal.

I guess it's too late for you to grow up, Lennie.

Breathtakingly wrong, on so many levels!!!!

Federal spending on the education bureaucracy has skyrocketed in recent years. In 2000, the feds spent about $38 trillion, but by 2011 it ballooned to $78 trillion. College costs are obscene, true, but that's because the state and fed governments burden students with loans rather than letting market pressures keep college expenses under control. And only 20% of our federal budget goes to the military; by far, the biggest chunk of fed spending -- some 54% -- goes to entitlement programs.

Wow joe you think $22k per pupil which is the amount spent on the north shore is just not enough. Also, the majority of tax dollars is spent on entitlements. Get a clue

Education Spending has increased by over 51% since 2000: (Federal, State, Local)

2000: $542.8 Billion
2011: $810.1 Billion
2012: $822.8 BIllion
2013: $820.6 BIllion

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_education_spending_20.html

"we in Illinois are dealing with incredible corruption and lack of political integrity"

I agree with this 100%.

...and on the subject of 'Patch polls', we should all recognize the trend here. It's not 'Patch' as much as it's one person, Brian Slupski, who pinpoints an ideological pain point every Sunday and gets the most webhits for them.

This is not the approach that Patch had when they set out a couple of years ago. The first time i approached Patch about writing a political blog, i was turned down and told that Patch does not want to get into political discourse.. However, after Patch lost millions of dollars for AOL, it looks like they are open to posting things that will get hits. Slupski has it downpat.

Well said, Chris. The social fabric of our country is at stake. An educated citizenry is essential to democracy ( or a republic-democracy like ours). It is also the duty of our citizens to thoroughly educate themselves about government, business, the arts, etc. That means reading about all sides of an issue - not just the ones we like.

because someone who didn't have children paid for your education. We all pay for public education. We all get educated at one point or another. Parents and the community need to be able to participate in children's education, the buildings, the activities without needing to sue the schools if they hurt themselves. Schools will change when we participate. This is not a babysitting job for teachers. Teachers do not replace parents or the members of the community's responsibilities.

Because they are this country's future. Do you not think education is important enough to enable the U.S to participate in future world issues? Because you have no kids, it doesn't matter what happens in the future?

Anne, read previous posts on the subject. Everyone makes up a community, no one uses all services that are funded. Thankfully I have never needed the Fire Dept, I don't use the Senior center just to name a couple. My kids are grown now and I have no problem with my taxes going to education. Without the collective funds of taxes there would be no education, then where would the community be?
To clarify what you are saying, homeowners with kids should pay more, what if they get laid off....happens a lot even in higher priced areas. Then should they pull the kids out of school since they can no longer afford it?

As was stated before...so you want to have to pay to call 911 or if there is a fire should you pay more for them to come to your house to put it out? Oh should people with more cars have to pay more for road work and plowing, what if you don't own a car, then have that part knocked off your tax bill.

Anne, do you want an educated person processing your retirement claim OR your doctor bills OR your bank account? These children eventually become the people on which we depend. Don't be so short-sighted. You may not have children, but they will grow up and eventually manage your life.

Wrong again Anne! I am a retired educator who taught in a war zone... North Chicago. There are way too many incompetent teachers both in the NC school system and elsewhere.

Anne,
You need to take a look at Niles West High School, most of the Fine art teachers are making over $125,000 + benefits, including pension.

I have no problem with unions in the private sector but I do not think they should be in the public sector.

h m, why don't public employees have the same rights as private? Why should public employees be at the mercy of the whims/dislikes/prejudices, and greed of their employers? Should public employees have to work 16 hour days or seven day weeks with no overtime pay? Should an employer be able to fire anyone he or she wants just because he/she doesn't like the person, no matter how good of a job the person may do? Should sexual harassment be taken without any recourse? An employee with no rights can easily be exploited, and history shows that that does occur. The problem with the teachers' unions I have found is that they don't consider the individual's rights- the teacher's right to be independent in any case. Obviously you want group members do be together, but what's collectively good for the group, may not be so great for the individual. Unions should not force it's teachers to belong and pay a fee. That should be the individual's choice.

Who are these public sector employees working 16 hour days, grinding away seven days a week, no overtime? I know many private sector employees that work 16 hour days and work 7 days a week with no overtime.

at the moment, I've forgotten which President it was - but one of them (Roosevelt?) said that "Unions were wholly incompatible with Public Service" - and he was right. The employees take money paid to them by the Government, which is paid by all taxpayers, and then funnel some of it back to the Unions so they can get more money from the rest of the taxpayers though threat of strike. Insane.

Some public sector unions can't strike legally (fire, police, air traffic controllers), so when they aren't getting their way there's typically a localized mass epidemic that occurs amongst the membership. In some cases nothing bad happens to them, but they get more money. In other cases, they get fired (read: ATCs and Regan).

As for Educators? No. They ought not to be allowed to unionize. This bit with the "we want a raise or we're going on strike (and you'll have to watch your own kids)" is getting REALLY old and very expensive for the rest of us.

Has anyone read the contracts for some of the Districts (cf: D112 in Highland Park)? The sheer amount of benefits that they 'negotiated' under threat of strike is unsustainable - sick time that accumulates and gets paid out, committee extra pay, chair of committee extra pay, etc., etc... Guaranteed raises for "steps", "lanes"... Insurance... etc...

Again, no problem with pay for performance, but we ought not have our hands tied with regard to salaries/benefits/force reallocations under threat of strike.

See my posting about the need for "volunteer" busing between the wealthy districts and inner city schools. I think many students would welcome the chance. Jimmy Carter did for his daughter. I can't remember if President Obama's daughters are going to local D.C. schools as well, but it sets an example.

You are funny, "can't remember if obama's daughters go to public DC schools". It's called Sidwell friends progressivevoice

Gary since you are a retired teacher...can you answer for me why the US does not have a standardized teaching curriculum across the country? I agree the situation is complex on multiple levels but the fact that each district, state, precinct has varying curriculum seems counterproductive. We are the only industrialized country that doesn't have a standardized curriculum. Education is an obligation in my opinion. We owe our children a fighting chance and all learning is needed. Not so much AP classes but humanities, arts, math beyond geometry, sciences etc if for nothing else than to teach critical thinking. It's a lost art with the US population these days. I'm scared with all the school closings in the city our violence will increase. I'm not a fan of teachers union because I feel they're becoming a chasm in the ability to find solutions but I'm not a teacher so I have a limited opinion but I also don't place 100 percent of failure on them...I blame parents. And parental involvement or culpability spans all the socio-economic bands.

Danette, the new "core curriculum" is supposed to be a standardized curriculum. It still has a lot of problems though, and if I'm not mistaken, a few states have opted out (Texas maybe?). And like everything else, there's money involved. If the kinks are somehow fixed though, it could be promising. I think one of the biggest problems with the common core is that it does not take students' developmental levels into account in the lower grades.

Forget the "volunteer" bussing or any kind of bussing for that matter. If someone wants to attend school in a "wealthy" district, they need to live in that district and pay taxes. If they have a problem with their schools, THEY need to fix them. They need to take an interest in their children's education. Stop whining about someone else having something that you don't have, and work to create it (or something better) for yourself.

Bear in mind that the city of Chicago spends well over $12,000 per year per student. Funding of the education bureaucracy has little correlation with results.

Gary I think Thomas Jefferson would disagree with you on whether ALL children deserve a good education. To the contrary he was emphatic that the only way to the pursuit of happiness is through education. In 1786 August 13. (to George Wythe) he states "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."[2

More money doesn't automatically equate to a better education. You also MUST mix in parents who care. If the parental units don't care, the kids won't care. And we only need look to certain neighborhoods in the City of Chicago to see what happens when parents don't care and kids don't care.

Kids end up having kids, and those kids don't care either.... the spiral continues.

I've been watching this craziness continue in Chicago for the better part of 40 years. If we want to fix it, we need to set hard limits on benefits so we stop incentivizing kids having kids and living on welfare. We've given what now... BILLIONS of dollars to help this problem? Programs? Grants? Loans? Job training? It hasn't worked and all it's done is drag our whole State downward.

Fixing this multi-decade debacle isn't going to be easy, but I guarantee you it's not as easy as throwing even MORE money at the problem, and certainly not as easy as mixing in kids to a 'wealthy' district from some 'poor' district.

Pete, the problem with vouchers is that some schools will become overcrowded, which will diminish the quality, and other schools will be left with very few resources, but will still be expected to give an adequate education to the remaining students. Instead of one failing school, you eventually have two. Charter schools for the most part are not supervised nor are they held accountable for the quality of education or the funds they receive from the public school district. There is no easy solution, especially when there are so many variables in play, but destroying the public education system is not the answer.

LOWER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE: Stanford University study finds charter school pupils gain an extra three months of learning. “Detroit school children are learning at a rate of an extra three months in school a year when in charter public schools compared to similar counterparts in conventional Detroit Public Schools, according to the findings of a Center for Research on Education Outcomes (CREDO) study done by Stanford University on students in the Detroit area.” News like this will only boost the outflow from traditional public schools, moving us closer to The K-12 Implosion.

I would think that if a school is so popular it would quickly be duplicated if the entry barrier for the new school is low. New schools could open and succeed with this popular educational model.

Deadcat, can you give a link to the Stanford study?

By the way, Deadcat, you may want to reference articles you quote word for word. This may be a small local website, but plagiarism still applies.

Oh sully, why can't you be resourceful enough and look it up yourself, but hey look, it's the liberal rag NY times of all places ... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/opinion/better-charter-schools-in-new-york-city.html?_r=0

Oh, you mean like this, DC?

http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIPLE_CHOICE_EXECUTIVE%20SUMMARY.pdf

or this?

http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/National_Release.pdf

or maybe this-

http://credo.stanford.edu/pdfs/CGAR%20Growth%20Executive%20Summary.pdf

Straight from the horse's mouth, as the saying goes.

Yes and why can't paychecks, dividend payments, capital gains, etc go directly to the school district After the school district takes the amount needed, they can send the rest back to the taxpayer.

I agree. See my comment below. There is plenty of money...it just needs to be distributed more evenly.

If our politicians truly cared,they would stop spending money on phony foreign wars and the military-industrial complex. Just how many high tech weapons do we really need? How many millions have been wasted on useless arms and warplanes? If pols. really cared, they'd stop giving such huge tax breaks to industries and corporations. Why should the oil companies or the banks be able to make millions in profits and then pay little to no taxes? Corporations are allowed to give unlimited amounts of money to politicians, but they don't have to pay taxes? They have enough to donate, but not enough to help their own country's economic difficulties? How nice it would be if some of these wealthy corporate CEOs had enough foresight to see that the U.S. will not be able to compete in an increasingly complex world if our people lack a good education. Then maybe they would put their money into education instead of politicians pickets and off- shore accounts. If this happened in any way, if the government used its money to fund domestic issues just a little bit more, property owners wouldn't have to bear all of the burden.

Sully and his red herrings. This discussion is about public school funding at the local level. We spend more than enough and much of the spending is wasted. I don't want to pour any more money into the system. We need to do a better job with the funds we have.

DC, this had been a nice thread with serious comments and dialogue and then you came along.

Paul I agree with your above comment. The fighting is futile because it's perception of bad teachers union, bad property taxes, bad parents, blah blah blah. The reality is we MUST fix the education system. I live in District 125 - Stevenson High School is one of the best in the country - our property taxes in Lake County are also the highest in the country - 17th I believe. The biggest increase in our property taxes yearly goes to the schools. However, when our district and other districts put referendums to the voters to increase monies allocated for the schools - on top of what we've already been assessed I have to think twice to supporting the move. The school boards need to do better with the cash they have and residents/voters need to be more informed on referendums. Part of education is NOT to rely on the media to promote certain viewpoints.

We lived in Germany for a year and our daughter went to an international school. Its the baccalaureate program over there however, the German school aged children are selected for their "career" at a very young age and some of those children born to wealthy families will receive an impressive education and those that don't meet the criteria will be admonished to schools that are for "labor" and not intellect. I guess citizens in this country need to realize our system is not perfect but at least the opportunity exists to provide a good education.

Sorry, I don 't buy this progressive bs. Reason for poor performance from lower social/economic communities is not hard to deduce and it has nothing to do with the "school experience". just like tearing down public housing and dispersing the residents made crime worse. same will happen if this mixing occured. besides, boston has higher % of higher income kids in private school than any major city. children are most likely to succeed in school when pushed by parents who provide stability, help with schooling, and instill an education and work ethic. But for decades now, the American family has been breaking down.
Two-fifths of children born in the USA are born to unmarried mothers, an eightfold increase since 1960. Many succeed thanks to the heroic efforts of strong, motivated single parents and other relatives. But research shows that children of single parents suffer disproportionately high poverty rates, impaired development and low performance in school.

Well, it didn't work that great in the south!

Pete, that is not a canard put forth just by the teacher' union. I don't belong to a union and base nothing on what union literature states. Charter and voucher schools change the playing field for all students. I wasn't talking about what will happen to teachers- I was referring to the students who will be impacted. Already school systems are becoming re-segregated and there is not much research out there that supports charters are any better than public school when it comes to the education these students receive. . The charters do however, remove funds that could provide resources for the public schools. This isn't just a financial issue. It's an issue of how can the public schools be made better without destroying the whole educational system.

Each Student whose parents don't pay property taxes to the county they like in should pay a refundable tuition. You need to get the parents attention. THEY HAVE TO HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME. TO MANY KIDS ARE ALLOWED TO STAY HOME OR MISS SCHOOL.

Loose Lips, these are good suggestions. But given the short attention span of most of today's kids, lectures are daunting for many kids. Hands-on methods need to be incorporated into best practices, too.

That is being considered. I suppose high school could do the same as large universities- have a lecture section which is online, and a lab section that is taught by the classroom teacher for more hands-on learning and further discussion. It would have to be both, not either-or. A lot of students would be turned off by just hearing lecture over a computer and then not having any interaction with a teacher or classmates.

A thought on finances though- every school in the country that wants on-line instruction would have to be wired and connected to the Internet. Not all districts can provide that.

"We have long had standardized testing in schools; why don’t we tap the very best teachers nationwide and .."

Currently, there is a movement to eliminate standardized testing. This is being advocated by teacher's unions.

Standardized testing is no longer being used in the way it was supposed to. If there's a movement (I know small pockets exist; I was unaware that this is a mass union enterprise), it's because the tests are using the kids as pawns instead of measuring their academic skills in a meaningful way. The testing companies are making a fortune selling all of their educational tools so the testing industry will do what it can to keep promoting more and more testing--not necessarily for the students, but for their own profits. Anyway, what was your point, Dan?

"Standardized testing is no longer being used in the way it was supposed to. If there's a movement (I know small pockets exist; I was unaware that this is a mass union enterprise), it's because the tests are using the kids as pawns instead of measuring their academic skills in a meaningful way. The testing companies are making a fortune selling all of their educational tools so the testing industry will do what it can to keep promoting more and more testing--not necessarily for the students, but for their own profits. Anyway, what was your point, Dan?"

My point was that somebody suggested using these standardized tests, going forward, as a means for finding good teachers. They may not be used to the extent that they are now, as there is a movement by teacher's unions to get rid of them.

Competition, competition, competition.

Force the schools to compete for our students, and watch the quality go up as costs go down, watch unseen innovations pop up in the most unlikely places, watch the schools find ways to serve many different needs without breaking their budget, watch school administrators treat parents like valued customers instead of ignoring, insulting, and bullying them into silence, watch union influence wane ... and watch our education system become the best in the world.

Is dreaming is still legal in this country?

Dan, I'm still not following you. What are you saying regarding the use of standardized tests? They should be used to find good teachers?

"..watch union influence wane"

When this happens, the dreams start to become realities.

Dan, could you answer the question instead of spouting off about the union?

Gary, research has already shown that competition has done nothing to improve the situation. Education is not a capitalist endeavor.

Sully,
Research conducted by the best and brightest minds our country could cultivate showed that ObamaCare would cut health care costs by $2,500 per family per year, while allowing everyone to keep their present health care program. How could they get it so wrong? Oh yeah, that's right. All they care about is buying votes and consolidating power for their political team. Facts and consequences don't matter.

My research shows that research conducted by the Credentialed Class of politically connected elites, is useless.

When it comes to providing more choices and better quality, I'll bet on market forces over government decree every time.

Besides, I thought Democrats were all about "choice". Are you going to stand up and fight for my right to "choose"?

Gary: "Research conducted by the best and brightest minds our country could cultivate showed that ObamaCare would cut health care costs by $2,500 per family per year, while allowing everyone to keep their present health care program. How could they get it so wrong? "

C'mon Gary...they didn't get anything wrong. They knew exactly what they were doing. Did you hear that Paul Krugman recently spoke to a group and told them that for the sake of cost containment, Obamacare would have to adopt 'death panels'? Yes, he actually said 'death panels'. Lemme see here...who else mentioned death panels a few years ago and was ostracized by the media for fear mongering? Hmmm...

@Sully The Teachers Unions use the students as Pawns.

Try to stay on subject, little boys.

I'm glad to hear you are for school choice! Welcome aboard. All we have to do is pass a simple law that states that the dollars follow the child to whatever school the parents chose regardless of where you live, and we'll have the kind of school choice you described above.

Those without kids get to pay reduced property taxes.

Lucas it doesn't work that way. What happens when you do have kids and all of us who already raised our children take our monies out of the system? There won't be any left if that was the way it worked.

Pay tuition.

Gary
How much education do you think your tax dollars would buy? In CCSD 46, the average K-8 annual tax is less than $4,000. If you have 2 children, how far do you think that will go?

No I don't. If I choose to send my child to another school, I have to pay double. That's not a choice, that's a penalty.

The rest of your post is riddled with similar logical fallacies. I don't have the time to go through them all. The idea that school choice would create a bigger, more expensive, more oppressive, less responsive bureaucracy than we already have now ... is simply ridiculous.

Tell me, why shouldn't I be able to use my tax dollars and choose where I send my child to school?

Then they wouldn't be tax dollars...they'd be payments.

Gary, danette doesn't want choice because she doesn't trust that you know what is best for your child. If you had choice, danette thinks we will need a bureacracy of trust administrators to manage your choice. Danette is all about managing your choices so they comply with government guidelines

Gary
I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell you what Dannette wants or doesn't want, but I will tell you that I want MY tax dollars to support my local schools. Your choice is yours but not with my money.

Agreed. Look at another failed scheme...Michigan's Proposition A in the mid '90's.

"Mismanaged funds - so it happens in private education as much as it does in the state."

Nope.

The Illinois pension system has been mismanaged to the tune of about $90 billions dollars and this is has already lowered our bond rating and is threatening to bring the entire state down. Any company that behaved like this would have folded long ago. That is the problem with centralized control versus markets. When one company makes a mistake, their employees, investors, and some of their customers suffer and then everyone has to move on to another company who did it right.

When government makes a mistake, everyone suffers and there's no where to go, unless you want to move out of Illinois and a lot of people are doing just that.

Our current system has failed in almost every measurable way. Let's try competition. Why are you fighting against competition and free markets so much? Don't you want parents to have the ability to simply walk away from failing schools? What could your motivation possibly be to keep children from getting the best education possible?

It's real simple. Fund the child, not the school. Make the schools EARN their students and watch what happens.

@Sully Best parents. Parents that care if kids go to school or not. Have them study

Deadcatbounce....please refrain from misstating my posts...if comprehension is a problem for you perhaps you should finish school before deriving an opinion of something you haven't participated in.

Gee, I wonder which school would have the best test scores? Hmmm. Well, whichever it is, it'll obviously be because that school has the best teachers.

Sully,

In this discussion you have brought up enough straw men to burn down a barn. It is impossible to argue sensibly with you as to how you are wrong in so many areas. I never by the way accused you of being a union member, only that your writings were identical to those of the Union..

America is not producing sufficient high school graduates on any track -- college bound, trade unions bound, general work force -- to compete in the 21st Century world economy. Our youngsters are being outworked and falling behind in Math, Physics and even communication skills by students in the schools in Western Europe, the Pacific littora, Singapore and India. Immigrant children from Asian families are subjected to quota by U. C. Berkeley among other schools. adolescents are passed up grade by grade without demonstrable skills. Universities are requiring remedial courses on entering freshmen. We are not graduating engineers from college in sufficient numbers because the math is too hard - -we must rely on special visa foreigners. Sully, you bedevil us with horror stories from the past, but the horror li in the future

When parents are unable to provide the necessary discipline and early childhood learning in the family, the circle is complete Government programs do not cut it. The benefits of Head Start peter out about fourth grade without family knowledge, discipline and support.

Okay Pete. I guess even after all these years I've worked in the education field I still don't know a G.D. thing. Golly gee whiz. And all that research must've been faked.

Pete, sully is all about the strawman

@Pete, Sully is dishonest and does not want a debate of the facts. He just wants to talk about the info he finds. It is worthless to actually debate him/her.

Oh Lennie, you hurt me. Hey big fella, why don't you investigate what I say? Too lazy or too afraid I'll be right? Neither you nor anyone else here has come close to proving me wrong. Only snipes because you really don't know what you're talking about in the long run. Little boys trying to act all grown up in an adult world. I'd expect no less, Len.

Mr Jarratt
People who live in glass houses...
You haven't proposed anything original that has a chance in you-know-where of success in practical application. You Google-cut-and-paste in every post. You haven't a shred of practical experience, other than your personal homeschool history, in the field of education. Why would anyone want to debate you on the subject? You're just a parrot!

Sully, I have proven you a liar, the last time on this thread: http://grayslake.patch.com//blog_posts/the-american-dream-overcoming-the-education-bureaucracy

As is with education, the same thing applies to inner city crime. Chicago has a parent problem, not so much a gun problem.

Where parents are more engaged in their children's education, there is a much better chance for success.

Danette,
You've convinced me. After this, let it never be said that I don't listen.

You have convinced me that if a system is tried and fails in even one place in the country, no matter how unfair the conditions were for the test, then that system should never be used again anywhere in the US.

Therefore.... wait for it....

... since the public school system has completely failed in Chicago, it should be shut down across the country, and we should never ever ever ever try publicly funded education again anywhere in the country.

You see how well I can follow your profound logic. I'm on board. This black and white stuff makes life so much easier. But what does that leave us with? Home schooling for everyone, until one parent somewhere screws that up too and we have to shut down all home schooling?

Nah. Competition is the answer. Fund the child, not the school.

Gary you are a contradiction. Soooo after a whole day of posting your real issue is public education not the fact you can't decide where your tax dollars go? Now of course you fail to recognize that you own some responsibility. You don't like what you get in your district move to another one. It's not taxes or how they are distributed that is failing our education system....

There are some exceptional schools in Chicago. Lane Tech comes to mind. Of course it requires parental involvement and a test to get accepted but hey sounds like that's just your thing.

Good bones in that idea

Wow danette, I thought everyone new about the TRS pension. Do a google search and get educated ... And when that teacher does retire, what is her pension? If most school districts are like Chicago's, the teacher will make about 50% of her final salary if she retires at age 55, or 75%, the maximum, if she waits until age 59. I guess we should think twice about your acumen. Also, there is a 3% cola that goes with the 75%

Poor danette, an average pension of 45k includes part time and teachers that worked less than 30 years. I know a teacher that now gets $500 per month for only 7 years of part time work. That's a pretty good if you ask me. I know another with $1000 per month for only 10 years of work! Where did you read 1 in 5 receiving less than 20k after 35 years? It's not true.

Not all teachers in all Districts contribute 9.4%, in some Districts, the DISTRICT makes the contribution for the teacher, as part of their salary/benefits package.

The 3% COLA is a ripoff for the taxpayer. What you put in, plus accumulated actual interest is what should be available for the pensioner. We ought not to increase anyone's benefit payout regardless of the investment vehicle (pension, Soc. Sec.) just because the so-called "Cost of Living" went up. If that's a concern, the pensioner should set aside additional funds to cover that possibility, OR, here's a thought - let the pensioner manage his/her own money at their own risk.

David
9.4% off the top or off the bottom is 9.4%. It's wage/benefit and earned either way. Districts that pay the 9.4% are actually saving taxpayers money by holding down the salary used for annuity calculation.

Danette Hayes not sure where you found your average age of "69". Thanks to the strength of teachers’ unions, the average retirement age for a public-school teacher in America is 59.

Lucas my comment came from the TRS link for ILLINOIS not the average age of public school teacher in the whole USA.

Danette Hayes SUGGEST YOU RE READ MY POST IT SAYS "AVVERAGE RETIREMENT AGE"

DCB
most teachers work private sector jobs long before they teach and for some time after. That income is subject to SS tax from which they derive no benefit.

If you have 40 or more quarters you have paid into SS you can collect a portion of your SS. There is an offset because of your pension. So Terri's statement is wrong

DCB
Wrong? And this portion you mention is how much? Please cite.

What do you men I'm wrong Terri? It seems like you are in a constant state of wrong with a great deal of knowledge of nothing ... the recipient Social Security benefit is reduced by 2/3 of her TRS pension. For example, if the person's pension is $300 per month, $200 is deducted from his Social Security payment. So, if his payment is set at $400 per month, it becomes $200 per month under the Government Pension Offset.

Read more: What Are the Rules on TRS & Social Security Benefits? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7213692_rules-trs-social-security-benefits_.html#ixzz2M1PpFpDW

deadcatbounce why are you referencing the chicagotribune and not the TRS annual report as I told you I got the info? This back and forth is futile but the trib article barely skims the actual document. And yes $46K after 35 years of work is a modest pension. The average CEO and bus executive in the US works 5 years in their role and receives 10 times that amount in deferred compensation per year. The whole point of education is to be able to provide a living wage. I don't believe we should penalize those that are providing the education to our children. There are teachers at Stevenson High School in Lincolnshire who make more than I do but there isn't a day in my life I could EVER do what they do. So do I cry and say teachers make too much money? Nope - call a whambulance for all the folks suggesting teachers aren't earning their pay. Yes there are bad teachers - that's where parents need to get involved. But there are a lot more "blue ribbon" teachers than there are bad. we bought our home knowing our property taxes were high to support the school but that's the choice we made when we decided education was important to our childrens future.

DCB
I said, "Wrong?". It was a question...not an accusation. But I'll use your facts to help answer the question...
So, that $75k pensioner gets their SS reduced by $50k. How much SS do they get?
The average $46k pensioner gets their SS reduced by over $30k. How much SS could they get?

PS...GPO is for receiving SS from a qualifying spouse's contributions.

Well Terri a teacher receiving a $75k pension would pretty much have worked 30 or more years as a teacher, not long stretches in the private sector as you were referring to in your post The highest amount you can get in SS is $2500 per month or $30k per year, so you do the math, if you're capable.

Just wanted you to do it and you did...thanks. So the average pensioner receives nothing from SS and the maximum pensioner receives nothing. According to your math, the only pensioner that would receive any SS would be receiving a pension (for which they paid twice what the private sector pays for SS) between $22.5 and $30k...The same as a worker in the private sector. So why was my statement so wrong and yours so right?

An Interactive Multi-Media professional graduates at age 21 and works in the financial industry as a project manager/QA engineer for 15 years earning in excess of $100k per year to start and twice that end of career. Moves to teaching at age 36 and works 24 years to retirement. Then works as a consultant in the finance industry, as an independent contractor paying 13% towards SS, until they are 65 or eligible for Medicare.
How much SS do they get?

Please note that ERO is so costly, it is rare that a district would approve it for a retiree. As such, the vast majority of teachers retiring before the age of 60 are taking the 6% per year x number of years under 60 out of their pensions. Alas, the 75% ers are few and far between.

Mr Jarratt
Other than citing some obscure right wing website, have you taken the time to annuitize a teachers actual contributions to their retirement?

Interesting, I didn't know the TRS was an obscure right ring website.

Interesting you read only what you want to read...I said Do The Math...annuitize a teacher's contributions over a career and retirement. Show an illustration based on average or median. That info is not on TRS. Your link is to a worksheet for benefit calculation...not a future value calculation of their actual contribution. You previously cited an example for one best case scenario on an obscure right wing website. Thank you for the link to the formula...now do the work.

deadcatbounce - social security isn't pension. SS is not meant to be the sole he retirement income for an individual. However, pensions are the sole income for teachers - they don't receive ss and any monies the put aside in other income generating funds isn't as robust as the regular worker bee who has more control over their investments. SS payments can not be compared to pensions.... they don't work the same. And let's not even go down the path where women are negatively impacted by ss....

I completely agree that end-of-career raises need to be eliminated medium term. As Danette stated, promises have been made and a teachers contribution should guarantee that they are kept. End-of-career raises were limited statewide in recent history, IMHO, as a step towards elimination. CCSD 46 has taken the next step. In a very short period of time they can be eliminated if done sensitively. Attempts to slash and burn would hinder the process.

Ending the pension cheating isn't slashing or burning anything. No one should ever have expected to get one dime they didn't earn, and they shouldn't be shocked now to find out that the scam is unmasked and people are demanding it come to an immediate end.

The real "slash and burn" is being proposed down in Springfield where they are proposing to slash and burn our property values by dumping the pension burden on local communities instead of putting an end to the scam that got us in this mess in the first place. Taxpayers are hurting, and the unions and government employees should show that they are willing to be good citizens and neighbors by offering to give up benefits they never earned in the first place.

Undo the pension salary spiking scam, and THEN let's talk about what else needs to be done to fix our finances. Start there first.

The people of Illinois have been cheated out of way too much money for way too long.

Gary
Expectations were set by the people of illinois and earned as a portion of salary/benefits. To eliminate this provision in the medium term is the right thing to do.

BTW...how are end-of-career raises cheating?

Thanks for that constructive imput, DR. Yeah, just can't stand this country I was born and raised in, had kids in, and actually pay taxes to instead of hiding my money in the Caymans. I hate America because I think gays should have the same rights as others, I believe that gun purchasers should have a thorough background check, I believe the public school system should be made stronger, and I think critical thinking skills should be stressed in education so that our kids can compete in the world as a whole. I also think climate change is real and that our environment (here in America) should not be in the hands of oil companies. I would like America's lakes and mountains not be destroyed by fracking and pollution. I guess I can't be a true Amurikin patriot if I believe these things. Hey D.R, I wonder if you pay taxes that are as high as mine. Not all the wealthy have to be greedy money magnets. Some of us pay our taxes because its our duty as Americans. So I suggest you get your head out of your arse and act like a semi-intelligent human being. Oh another thing, my links provide factual information. It's not my problem that you choose not to believe them because I'm a liberal. Thems the facts, buddy.

DR has an obsession with a few of us. He/she believes a progressive view point is bad, and that's their right. Is it unAmerican? Certainly not. More hate is spewed from the likes of DR than most people. A civil discussion about schools and DR drags it to the gutter. Fear not, I don't like paying taxes (and I have paid a great deal of taxes) anymore than the next guy. I just think the money should be spent to improve education, healthcare and social justice instead of for Drones, Sugar Cane, and defending unconstitutional laws like DOMA. But, that's just me....no, I am not Sully or Just Sayin. Honored to be accused of being them, but I'm just a good old liberal.

DR...as in Deluded Robot....I consider it HIGH praise to stand among those you warn against. You CONS...as in republiCON CONervatives are, blessedly, a dying breed. The only problem I see is that you are not dying off fast enough. Only when your herd thins enough will we have a enlightened population engaged in elevated discourse regarding all pertinent matter. So...if you REALLY want to do the world a favor...drop dead.

Sully...RB...Where the H E Double Hockey Sticks has McClown gone ??? Should he not be here blaming Obama for this problem too??? LOL.

You mean donating millions and millions of dollars to lobbyists and politicians is not asking for anything? Wow, your head is buried deep.

So I guess the topic of this article has gone off course for good now that the toy soldiers have taken over. Congratulations soldiers!

@Sully(aka herowanabe) Who received the most campaign funds last election. Who is getting millions of dollars in PAC advertisements in Chicago AREA. which party is that again?

DR please show me the tax loophole that says Liberals don't have to pay taxes. I doubt the Republicans put that one in, but you never know. It may become my personal favorite. Loopholes like The Corporate Jet loophole that the Republicans are holding tax reform hostage seem more plausible.

As hard as it is to say, Deerfield Resident OPM effects the liberal as well as the conservative society, It is an equal opportunity narcotic. Pork does not discriminate between taste buds

Millie, who do the Kochs and the other wealthiest Americans and corporations, since apparently they're people too, donate to on a consistent basis around the WHOLE country (not just Chicago) and in every US election for at least the last thirty years? Which party is that again?

Not for the same reasons Abby, but I agree with you on this one. Of course when I said almost the same thing, I was pilloried by your pals. Huh.

Since 2000, the Intermountain West’s population has grown by 20%, the Third Coast’s by 14%, the long-depopulating Great Plains by over 14%, and the Southeast by 13%. Population in the rest of the U.S. has grown barely 7%. Last year, the largest net recipients of domestic migrants were Texas and Florida, which between them gained 150,000. The biggest losers? New York, New Jersey, Illinois and California.

The danger, of course, is that these immigrants will bring the same toxic blue-state politics with them that produced the disasters they’re fleeing. Someone should set up a sort of Welcome Wagon — an education program for these immigrants like sully and rb that will encourage them to appreciate the policy and cultural differences that led to the prosperity that’s attracted them.

DR, I agree with you about the moochers. Those are most likely the ones who will take full advantage of any school choice along with their child being provided with free transportation.

He was re-elected because of all the free stuff he offers. The takers are close to outnumbering the makers.

He was re-elected for many reasons, some of which are smack dab in the Republican Right Wing Ideologically driven agenda that placed Mitt Romney where he didn't belong. The Conservatives have lost 5 of the past 6 popular votes for President. It wasn't hard to win, and had nothing to do with 'takers'. Most 'taker' States are Red by the way.

Obama was elected because a majority of Americans feel he is better for this country than what any republican can offer. Hey Resident, I wonder how the wealthiest counties in this country tended to vote. Wouldn't that be interesting to look up? You know what else would be fun to look up? How about the percentage of voters with graduate degrees who voted? I wonder who they voted for. Socialists? You're funnie D.R. Delusional and easily fooled, but funny.

Yes Abby, I simply want to mooch off of you and Resident. I'm not quite wealthy enough, so hand me some of yours. I hope you don't use public roadways or fire protection or police protection (I see its already too late for education since you use the public school), or work in a building/ live in a house that was built by union workers, or fly when you travel, or drink water provided to your neighborhood, or use the hospital emergency room, or the public library, or went to a public university and got a student loan... If you don't want to be a moocher yourself, then I hope you are totally self-sufficient. And of course, you'll never accept Medicare when you're older, right?

They don't, Abby? You mean there's no proof that its the red states that get more government handouts than the blue? Are you sure about that?

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html

http://247wallst.com/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/2/

So Abby, what lies were told about Romney? I'm curious. There were many lies told by both sides- too many- but which particular lies by Obama cost Romney the election?

Really Sandra, not in survey linked below. IL ranks number 9 in taker states. New Mexico, Mississippi and California are top three.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/2012/11/25/do-you-live-in-a-death-spiral-state/

Taker vs. Giver States: Illinois takes back 92 cents for every dollar we pay. Dear Abby, Illinois is NOT a taker State. Mississippi.... takes over $2 for every $1 paid.

http://t.ritholtz.com/bigpicture/#!/entry/is-your-state-a-net-giver-or-taker-of-federal,50c25f0bd7fc7b567093aa5f/media/1,givetakesmallfinal

What we have to do is close the huge gap between the one to two percent and the rest of the country. The disparity between the two is really what's destroying the country. The wealthy don't have to worry about their kids getting a less desirable education. They go to private schools all their lives and then attend the Ivys (whether they deserve to get in or not). If their wealth were going to trickle down, it would have done so by now.

Put your trust into the hands of a few humans, they know enough about what is fair, how much wealth people should be granted, making sure everyone is on the same page. Yeah, been tried before, nothing new here.

Really Lennie? You think those private schools are going to be admitting just anybody? Please show me widespread evidence that charters are any better at educating their students than the public schools are. Not just through test scores but by actual learning. Here's something for you to ponder while you're gathering your evidence-

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/15/us-usa-charters-admissions-idUSBRE91E0HF20130215

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/16/how-charter-schools-choose-desirable-students/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/15/what-is-gov-bobby-jindal-talking-about/

This is what charter schools SHOULD be about, but we've seen pretty clearly this isn't the norm-

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0408/Inner-city-Chicago-charter-school-has-perfect-college-acceptance-rate

Here's another positive story about a charter school that doesn't really run the way typical charters do.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/opinion/reframing-the-debate-over-charter-schools/12740/

So Lennie, my challenge to you is to prove that on the whole, school choice should be the norm even though failing charters outnumber effective ones by a large margin, and that many charter schools DO have acceptance procedures even though they aren't supposed to and DO tend to weed out the students they don't want.

Lennie, why should anyone take you seriously when you will not answer a single question? Your tired excuse of not answering only because I'm the one asking is, well, tired. I've given opinions and given facts backed up by research, yet you refuse to acknowledge anything. I hope you don't think that simply being asked a question is "picking" on you, but that does seem to be your M.O.

Here's one more chance to redeem yourself. Please provide evidence that charter schools on the whole, are better than public schools. I acknowledge there are some success stories when charters work as they're supposed to, but on the whole Lennie? I don't believe, and research agrees, that charters are any better than public schools, and actually, some are worse. Your move.

I have offered this many times. Let's have a debate of the issues and facts. I'll choose someone else to be on my side of the debate, you can choose someone else to be on your side of the debate. It will be 2 on 2 with a neutral moderator.

Are you willing to step up to the plate Sully or continue to hide in the shadows?

Yawn. The same old response. Sure Lennie, pretend I am the one not "stepping to the plate" if it makes you feel better. I've offered everything in writing for people to see and investigate on their own. It's out there for criticism or for agreement. You respond with a boring platitude. You continue to lose what little credibility you have. if you don't have anything to say, then stop wasting people's time.

Poor Sully, upset that I don't respond to your every whim when your stated goal is to attack me. You don't want an honest or rational discussion of the facts no matter how many links you post. That has been proven by your own words.

I have been writing and speaking in public for years where people can discuss the issues rationally and honestly with people from across the political spectrum.

Why don't you man up or woman up, as the case may be, and stop hiding in the shadows behind an alias. Then we can have a discussion free from the vitriol and dishonesty of the Patch.

You should be embarrassed Lennie. Same old excuse as always. That is really so old. I give you a chance to respond to my posts which are not in the least attacking you, but you still can't come up with anything of relevance.

" I doubt anybody has moved an inch from their deeply held positions."

Pete, i have changed position on some of my stances by reading comments. Not ideologically speaking, but in terms of practicality when discussing a law or a concept; some people just know a lot more about the nuts and bolts of a law than myself and i am able to learn something.

However, when you allow people to post anonymously online, they tend to say things that they otherwise wouldn't, if they were standing next to you. The internet has damaged our political discourse.

Two conditions are necessary to make real reforms:
1. The MSM has to stop demonizing anyone who tries to fix our problems.
2. The people who believe government intervention is the solution to every problem need to suffer to the point that they can no longer deny their own folly.

Number 1 is top priority. Our problems can never be solved as long as the media continues to destroy every reformer. Any hope I had that the media would turn around died in the last election. Reformers simply can't survive the onslaught, and it's getting more coordinated and more vicious every year.

Number 2 is happening all around us. Unfortunately, the Democrats, via the media, have the ability to blame the disastrous consequences of their own policies on their political enemies. So the victims of Democrat big government policies are going to get angrier and angrier with Republicans as they have been doing, until... well ... one bonus point to whoever can tell me the end game of massive suffering combined with demonization and misdirected blame.

I can see no way to stop the destruction. If anyone can see it, I'm listening.

If we can ever pull out of this economic nose dive, or if any of us survive the crash, then we will need to do number 3:
3. Educate our children on the benefits of individual freedom and free markets, limited government, and the rule of law.

Then they can start rebuilding the country we destroyed.

Dan,
Let's talk after you get your first credible death threat.

Three things, Gary-

1. Get your facts straight (who has fought tooth and nail to not come up with a solution to the sequester?)

2.Stop blaming every single thing on the democrats. It's taken more than one party to do this much damage.

3. Stop blaming the so-called (liberal) press. Fox has spent years indoctrinating republicans with falsehoods and misconceptions (which is probably why so many thought Romney would win in a landslide- that's what Fox told them).

Speaking of the sequester, do you have any idea how much that could hurt EVERYBODY? Seniors and school kids especially? Is the tea party once again going to obstruct the rest of the congress from doing what it knows it needs to do?

"Dan,
Let's talk after you get your first credible death threat."

I'm not worried about death threats, but with the anonymity, some of these ladies (and men) are much quicker to start with the name calling...which makes dialogue a little difficult.

You're blaming the Democrats for Big Government? It is hypocrisy to think that Republicans are really opposed to Big Government. Mr. Obama has cut the size of Government. The only time Republicans stop criticizing Government handouts is when they ask for them.

Then why don't you stick to the subject of this thread?

Sully,

Are you larger than a breadbox?

Much!